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The Revolution will be podcasted...
Russell and R.M. Slinky digress about music, the podcast, and changing the world.

Interview by R.M. Slinky

Russell David has been writing and performing songs since 1992. Since August 2006, he's also been host of the "simplemuzik podcast," a homespun San Francisco-based show offering a consistent blend of independent music, artist interviews, and Russell's own peculiar blend of heartfelt questioning, idealism, and practical/emotional hope for the world. We spent a few hours together last Saturday, Sept 15, 2007, talking about the podcast, music, and how (+ why) he believes talk changes everything.

We met at Martha & Bros. Coffee Company (Church @ Duncan, San Francisco) around 3pm. I ordered a sugar-free no-foam latte, and Russell enjoyed Irish Breakfast Tea (no lumps). Following is a transcript of the conversation:

R.M. Slinky: Hey, it’s great to see you!

Russell David: Thanks. Me too, yeah, this is always fun...

RMS: So, you’ve had a big year! I remember talking after the “Fish Loves a Bird” release, and it seems like everything has changed since then.

RD: Yeah, I’m busy, but really enjoying it. It's one of those emotional things, you know? Hard to explain. But I feel good about where things are. I'm growing.

RMS:That's great. So now you’ve got music - writing, recording, live shows, and the podcast too...

RD: Yeah.

RMS: How’s that been?

RD: The podcast?

RMS: Yeah, you've been doing it every week for a year now, right?

RD: Right. Yeah, it's been crazy - in a good way - and a lot of work - but I love it. It's been my focus the past year. I’m still trying to find a balance with music and poems and painting and other stuff too, but the podcast has just felt like the natural thing to focus on - at least right now.

RMS: Did you intend that when you started?

RD: Not really. I don't think I knew what to expect when I started. I just sorta had this romanticized vision of it. It's a lot more work than I thought, but I definitely don't regret it. I love challenge - and it's great in that sense - really demanding. I've been trying to rise to the occasion.

RMS: Uh huh, so, when you mention "demanding," what's the hardest part?

RD: Definitely just the consistency - doing the week by week, ongoing, thing. Sometimes you just don't feel like it, and you still have to come up with something.

RMS: Sounds like a perfect metaphor for relationships in general! (laughs)

RD: I know - yeah - lots of the same challenges, but I still think relationships are harder! (laughs)

RMS: Me too. (pause) ... so, you mentioned that the podcast is your main thing these days, which I assume means that it's affecting your music too? and performances? Are they less of a priority now? Or, how do they affect each other?

RD: I think they're all connected – in a way. I see them as different sides of the same thing. But, yeah, I've been doing less music and painting and poems. It's frustrating, cuz I want to do them all. But you can only really focus on one at any moment.

RMS: It's interesting too, that your music is a part of the podcast at times - so it seems like it's opened you up to a different kind of relationship with your songs.

RD: I think so. There's some overlap. And embedding them within discussion is cool in a way too. I definitely like that.

RMS: Before, when you were just doing songs, you had this much more quiet persona - and now I feel like I’m hearing a whole new public voice evolve. Or maybe that’s just my projection? How do you see it?

RD: Well, I’m definitely still shy! (laughs)

RMS: Or, introverted, right? That’s the more PC description... (laughs)

RD: Sure. But, well... actually, I think, for better and worse, I’m still both. The cool thing about the podcast is that it lets me talk emotionally, which I love, and I’ve always loved. And it feels intimate too, which draws me to it. The intimacy is what inspires me most, I think. That's what I love most about it. So, even though it might sound like I'm being more extroverted, to me, it feels like an extension of what I've always been trying to do, and who I've always been.

RMS: And how would you describe that? Who is that?

RD: Well - I've always been trying to communicate personally and intimately in a real way with other people. The songs and poems and paintings and the podcast - they're all attempts at that. And I think they all get at it in different ways.

RMS: Makes sense - even though, from the outside, they might be interpreted as opposite things by different people.

RD: I know. But maybe that's just because poems and songs and paintings are inherently more abstract and obtuse? I think poems and art in general are more difficult - because they aren't plain, and leave a lot of room for interpretation. But they're also more beautiful in ways, for the same reason.

RMS: Obtuse? How do you mean?

RD: Just that they're more distant in a sense, and less specific, which means less personal, and more open? I don't know. It's a strange bundle of contradictions!

RMS: You mean that poems and "art" are more removed from who you are, specifically, as a person?

RD: I think so, yeah. They're more objective maybe, in a sense? I think the intimacy in the podcast comes from me personally talking about feelings and ideas, and asking questions, straight up - as me - without the guise of an artform to hide behind. In that sense it feels more vulnerable and intimate. And exciting too, cuz the potential for real connecting is heightened. It's really me there, not some extension of myself that's removed and protected by a wall of metaphor.

RMS: I see that. So, if your personal goal is to connect and reach out, then the podcast must feel like a breakthough to you? I sense that.

RD: I think it has been. But, you know, it's never clear cut. I always seem to find - or be able to get lost - or mix feelings of breakthrough with feelings of frustration, so it's complicated. But, yeah. I think it's been a breakthough... definitely.

RMS: Interesting - so, what's the breakthrough part, and what's the frustration part? Where's the line?

RD: Well, the breakthrough is what you just said - that connection is happening. And the frustration is that it's simply always, never-endingly, a work in progress - never complete, you know?

RMS: Yeah.

RD: It's just the human thing - the fact that our emotions are not often connected to the reality of how good we have it, we always want more, etc.

RMS: But sounds like you're keeping it in perspective.

RD: I hope so. I'm trying to! (laughs)

RMS: That's good! Sounds like you are.

RD: No, honestly, I think I am. It's good.

RD: And so, I'm interested in how the podcast come about logistically. I mean, it seems like such a technical thing...

RD: Well, yeah, it’s amazing, actually, cuz I am pretty much a non-technical person, relatively speaking. So, it just sort of evolved slowly, very naturally. Ever since I first discovered podcasts a few years ago, I've been intrigued. I was talking about it with my friend Larissa for about a year before, and then she helped me set up the computer stuff. Honestly, none of it would have happened without her, so I’m hugely thankful for all of her help. Anyone with web-design business should send some her way! She's really talented. You can find her at www.larissapickens.com.

RMS: And how about the content? Or the format? How do you think up topics and shows?

RD: I don’t really remember how it happened at first - I mean, the original idea itself, or format. Basically, it was a natural progression. I knew it should include music, but it took me a while to figure out what tone or feel would work. Mostly, it was just an internal process of sorting, and I guess it’s still evolving?

RMS: Sure, but it seems pretty well thought out.

RD: Thanks.

RMS: And You seem natural on the air. Which surprised me a little at first, cuz – like you say – you’re shy. My experience of you one-on-one has been so different.

RD: How so? You mean I’m usually unnatural??? (laughs)

RMS: (laughs) No, I just mean that you're obviously shy in real life… and maybe awkward a little too...

RD: Ouch! (laughs)

RMS: No, but in the best way! Not as a bad thing – it’s disarming, actually.

RD: It’s interesting you say that, cuz, like I said, for me, the podcast feels really natural and more of the "true me" than I usually get to express. I feel like the podcast gives me a chance to be what a lot of my close friends have already been hearing for years and years. I don’t know if they see it that way? I’ll have to go back and ask and see. But, for me, it feels like the real me.

RMS: Sure – and I don’t mean to say that the podcast isn’t you! Not at all. But, I guess what I’m asking is, do you see a difference between your real life persona and your podcast persona?

RD: Not really. I do see what you mean, but honestly, I don't feel like there's a distinction. The podcast is a part of me - it's not all of me, but it's also not a separate part. And I think that's true with all of us, right? It's about context. We all accentuate different parts of ourselves depending on the situation.

RMS: Sure.

RD: And anyone who knows us in a specific role might feel like we're different if they see us in other aspects - but really that's just a natural part of the complexity of being alive. I think we're all a part of it. And that's one of the beautiful things about getting to know someone - the process of fleshing that out. We all have lots of opposites and contradictions, and yet whenever someone really sees the whole of us, in context, it makes sense.

RMS: The paradox of personality, I guess?

RD: Exactly. I can be quiet and moody, and manic and expressively passionate - back to back sometimes! I'm not purely one or the other. And I think both get captured on the podcast.

RMS: I agree, but the podcast does accentuate the emotionally passionate side, right?

RD: Yeah. That’s just natural, I think.

RMS: But my point is that you're making choices too, right? About what to represent.

RD: Definitely.

RMS: And, I guess that's what I'm interested in - how you choose to represent yourself, and how much of that you feel is show-biz? In the sense that you might heighten it for the show? Some of it must be self-conscious, right?

RD: I don't know. By “show-biz” you mean false?

RMS: No, no – or, I should ask, what’s your definition? My only point is that you seem to have a podcast-persona that’s different - or a nuanced distillation of who you are. Or maybe not? I don't know. How do you see it?

RD: I hope not. I definitely don’t mean that, or intend it to be that way. I intend to be transparent and real. But I guess I do naturally accentuate the passionate side in the podcast - simply because that’s where my motivation to talk comes from in the first place. It feels natural to me. I mean, I wouldn’t even be doing a podcast unless I felt passionate in some way about the topic or possibility of it, right? So, really, I just deeply believe in the fact that talk and hearing and listening can change our hearts, and I get carried away with that easily. It’s an act of hope to talk and care and put myself out there. So, I think that’s why it comes out the way it does.

RMS: Sure.

RD: I mean - it's amazing - cuz the podcast lets me be serious and talk about stuff I care about. Which is a total amazing gift and opportunity! So, for me, it doesn’t matter if it’s “public," or just me with my friends. If I get to talk about the stuff that moves me, then I’m naturally passionate and expressive. Cuz I do care, and I want to try, and so it just seems totally connected...

RMS: And without the podcast – in real life – do you find that you don’t have those opportunities as much?

RD: Well, again, I don't see them as disconnected per se, but I do have lots of chances in everyday life, and that’s why I say that my friends recognize my passionate side. They see it and laugh at me when I go overboard. Cuz I do a lot! (laughs) So, maybe wherever I’m comfortable it comes out? I think so. But a lot of my life in the "real" world, if you want to call it that, is out of my control. I don’t always get to frame the discussion and focus. You know?

RMS: And with the podcast you do have that control?

RD: Sometimes, depending. Not so much with guests, but definitely when it’s just me talking about whatever I’m feeling or wondering about.

RMS: I guess that makes sense too, especially for someone who self-proclaims as "shy." You have more control in the podcast than in real life, so you get the opportunity to express your passion and follow it more? Maybe?

RD: Maybe. Makes sense. I don’t feel like I’m looking for control, but I do like talking about big stuff that challenges me and pushes me and feels real. My goal with the podcast is just to spur that kind of conversation. Partly for me, selfishly – cuz I love it – and also because I’m a true believer in discussion and sharing and possibility. I just really do think we can make the world better by talking and being honest. I think it changes how we see the world, and then what we do in the world.

RMS: You say that a lot on the show. Do you really believe your podcast is changing the world?

RD: Well, I’m not saying "my podcast" in some possessive sense. I just mean that I believe we - you and me - can change stuff. And that, yeah, absolutely. You and me, and anyone who cares too and wants to, right? And so, in that sense, the show is just about us showing up, and not giving up.

RMS: And, totally ironically, or paradoxically, there’s a kind of desperateness in there too, right? Sounds like.

RD: Or, just intensity?

RMS: What’s the difference?

RD: I don’t know – but what I'm trying to convey is much more a sense of the energy and possibility that's inherent in facing and dealing with difficulty and pain. I think they're deeply connected. Cuz - truth is - I am desperate in ways. I long for a kind of connection and wholeness that's elusiveness to me. And I want to be open about that, and let it out, and let the sun hit it, and help re-define it as an open door, rather than a wall or an obstacle. It sounds crazy, I know. But I do think despair has a deeply beautiful, hopeful, side.

RMS: How so?

RD: In that it's pure and true and raw - the real thing - which is also what makes it hurt so bad. It's a paradox. And it's funny, cuz a few people who've written to criticize the podcast have actually used those exact words - that I come off as desperate. And it hurt! Cuz I'm afraid of being seen that way too. But I have to admit that they have a point. And whatever strength or vision comes from the podcast, is bound within that. I want to look at those things. And I want to be honest about them.

RMS: It's a fuzzy line, because desperation is a form of intensity - maybe even beauty too - for sure. A very out of control kind. And it seems like people are made very uncomfortable by that feeling in others, and in themselves.

RD: Right. But feeling uncomfortable, doesn't necessarily mean we should run away from something. Actually, I think it's a sign we should be looking at something! Pain in general is like that - it's a sign that something's wrong and needs to change. And, in that sense, basically, really, I think despair, or desperation, can be the beginning of hope. I think they’re totally connected and flip-flop back and forth throughout context - depending on the moment - and sometimes even in the course of a single day – for me. (laughs) Does that sound weird?

RMS: A little. It's definitely counter-intuitive. But I think I get it.

RD: Cool - cuz, I mean, really I feel like - in a lot of ways - hope is like an engine – or it can be – and despair is like the fuel. Often. It sounds paradoxical in a way, but I think desperation is needed and good. And also totally flamable and dangerous, obviously. So somehow those two realities sit next to each other and are intertwined.

RMS: It’s a weird contradiction.

RD: I know. But it also just makes complete sense, right?

RMS: In a way. But I don't think it's obvious. I wouldn't make that connection on my own, and I mean, it’s just weird and interesting that you maintain this very hopeful sense mixed with a kind of awareness and appreciation of darkness or despair or loss, or whatever. Most of the world seems to go one way or the other, y'know?

RD: I guess so. I don’t know the answer. But I guess I do have this very tentative and respectful relationship with both sides. I don't know where that comes from? I try to treat them with honor because I know they’re bigger than I am, and both seem really important if we're gonna live a life connected to the world and reality and other people.

RMS: How do you mean?

RD: Well, I feel it's important to know my place - like, I know that there's more despair and pain than I can really imagine or explain rationally - so I try to deeply respect the weight of that. Even if I haven't - yet - experienced it. I know it's out there. And the same is true of hope and possibility. I know there's more than I can imagine, and I'm just seeing through a tiny crack in the fence. So, just seems like good form to have a light touch when it comes to this stuff. Cuz we don't know what could be around the next corner.

RMS: You mean hope or despair might turn on you?

RD: They might. I think so. And they probably will, right? Emotions are big monsters. We live for them, they’re the most beautiful thing – but we also live at their mercy for the most part. They have the ability to really destroy us. So I feel like we have to live and jump in and also somehow balance the awareness of the danger and reality of that.

RMS: I like that - emotions are like wild animals - never domesticated.

RD: Right – or it's like surfing too. We’re out there and-in-the moment with the waves, but we also know that sharks and undertow and rocks and tsunami's exist.

RMS: Reminds me of that Hawaiian superstition about Sharks: “we don’t eat them, and they won’t eat us.”

RD: Yeah, exactly. Somehow we have to co-exist. So, seems like it's folly to go to either extreme.

RMS: And what are the extremes? How do you see them?

RD: Good and bad - hope and despair. I guess one side is the idea that the world is only perfect and beautiful and peaceful - the New-Age caricature of life - out-of-touch and overly simple. And it leaves anybody with real experience of insoluble pain out. And the other extreme is that life is only suffering and evil and pain and nobody is good, there's no hope, etc. Which is opposite, or seeming opposite, but sorta the same thing, right? With a cynical twist. So, I think they’re both crazy limitations, and I think they're both naïve. For me, to feel honest, I really need both, and I see the truth in both. I think the truth is both. And neither too. So, I don't know. It's hard.

RMS: But you side with hope?

RD: I do, yeah. Because that’s the only way forward. And that’s the life I want. I just can't give up.

RMS: Sure, but that makes you biased too, right? Aren’t you saying the cynical side is wrong?

RD: Yeah, I guess so, in a way. But siding with hope, for me, is not the same thing as saying cynicism doesn’t have a point. You know? I mean There is a reason to be cynical, I know that. And I agree! I'm not denying that life sucks and stuff doesn't feel good and there aren't answers for it. I mean, a lot of life is like that, right? Mine too. I know. And I hate it. But I also think that it must be appropriate and human and normal in some way too. I don't think it's weird to have those feelings and experiences, and I don't think we're alone.

RMS : Sure.

RD: I think we need to learn to listen to pain, and each other, and be honest about it. It's the most important thing, but, yet, society seems totally ill-equipped to deal with it. And I want and need to keep dealing and learning and seeing stuff there - working on it. I don't know why, but that feels right to me. So, what I’m talking about, as far as orientation, really, is just a life-choice. As long as I have consciousness, I’m pushing for life. So, yeah, I’m biased there, totally. I’m here with my arms open, and I actively want the world to be better than it is. Even though it isn't ... maybe especially because it isn't! Right? And I think, deeply, things only get better if we’re willing to do that. Whatever answers and hope there is, I think it's in there - and in the fact that we have the capacity to go there even though it hurts and aches and doesn't go away.

RMS: I’d agree. But the real truth is that it might never go away, right? I mean, it probably won’t.

RD: True, yeah, I know. And, for me, that’s what’s beautiful about trying. I think that’s what really means something in the world – to try and hope even though it might not make a bit of difference. And that's totally naïve too, which – I guess I think that’s the most beautiful thing in the whole world. I’m not ashamed of it.

RMS: I think people need that and respond to it.

RD: I think so. I really hope so. And some won’t too. But really, I don't have any proof for any of this. I just believe it. And need it.

RMS: Makes sense.

RD: Sort of. And it doesn’t too, right? (laughs) Totally.

RMS: Uh huh, yeah, I know. So, but, practically, what results are you seeing? Do you see changes in people around you? What's the response been to the podcast?

RD: Really, that's a hard question. I don’t know how to gauge responses. So, I don’t know. Maybe not? I do know that some people listen, and I'm really deeply honored by that. And some people have talked to me and said the show connects with them, which is always hugely gratifying. I'm really happy about that. But I don't keep tabs on stats or numbers. I don't know how many people are listening, or what numbers would mean success, or if they'd reflect some kind of objective value. It seems like that question can't be answered.

RMS: But you do feel like you’re making a difference?

RD: That’s a hard question too. But I mean, yes! Totally! I want to. And I think I am. But I’m also self-conscious and self-doubting, and – even conceptually or philosophically – don’t think I can change anything but myself. I think what really changes the world is passion and belief and action on an individual level. And that can be spurred by talking and by people feeling safe enough to be honest about their experiences. So I’m trying to operate at that level, and do that. I’m trying to be honestly human, and offer that to anybody who wants it. When we don’t feel alone, or when we know that it’s ok to be alone – that’s what changes the world.

RMS: Do you ever find it hard to conjure up that sense of passion? I mean you must get tired?

RD: Yeah, definitely. It’s a constant up and down.

RMS: How do you deal with it?

RD: It’s a lifelong learning thing for me. I find that working and thinking and trying is therapeutic. And, the older I get, I think I'm getting better at finding my strengths and using them – and learning what I can give – which is the biggest thing that helps - truthfully. I guess the podcast is a part of that in action.

RMS: But you still have the ups and downs?

RD: Yeah. We all do, right? I don’t think that’s gonna go away. Honestly, I’m not even sure I want it to! It’s just part of what it means for me to be here. So, I try to listen to it, and work with it, and be honest about it. And sometimes I fight it too – I can’t lie! (laughs) It doesn't feel good.

RMS: And in those times, when you’re doing the podcast, and you feel down – do ever have to manufacture the hope to be “on” or whatever?

RD: I don’t think I’m good at faking it. I’m pretty much forced to take my emotional state as is, and take the cue from that. That’s what informs the feeling or tone from week to week. So, if I'm feeling down it shows, or vice-versa. As I said, honestly, I just see the podcast as part of my life - not separate, or a performance.

RMS: But, interesting too, cuz I do think the emotionalism you’re talking about is related to performance – in a way, right? Must be.

RD: No, you're right. I see that. But that's what I mean - actually, I think that’s why there’s an obvious difference in quality from show to show on the podcast. Sometimes I’m more in the moment than others. Some nights are more natural than others. And I think I’m obviously more lucid and creative some days than others...

RMS: But it's also a performance?

RD: Sure. It's some tricky amalgam of real life and performance - I don't know where the line is.

RMS: The fact that you just said both - oppositely - points at a deep contradiction, right? Because seems like there’s an irony in that it *is* a performance, as you say, and isn't. So it’s interesting to me how those things work together. How do you balance the “show” with everything else you've said? With being real?

RD: Well, I guess it truly is both. But I don’t see that as a threat to being real. It’s just like performing songs emotionally, right?

RMS: Uh huh.

RD: Just cuz a song might be written in another time or place, or about different feelings, doesn’t mean that it can’t be emotionally real and new in any given moment. You have to be in the right space in order to get at the emotional truth of it, and that’s true whether we’re talking about an artistic thing or a conversation or communication or relationship. I think it’s the same with the podcast.

RMS: Yeah. And also, I agree, and like that you draw the boundary bigger, to include relationship and communication. Makes sense. We "act" in our relationships too.

RD: Right. I think so. It’s easy to get cynical and call performance unreal. And obviously we can sometimes hide behind performance, sure. But, often, if we’re dismissing performance, or context, we’re hiding from our own opportunity to be present with someone. That’s our issue. So, I don’t wanna get stuck in an idea of performance. I wanna really connect. And I wanna take my responsibility to be present seriously.

RMS: I guess what fascinates me too, is just the sense in which the “you” on the podcast is distinct from the “you” in real life. Y’know? Which we've talked about. Maybe that’s what I’m getting at? The way it plays with roles and context and perspective. I mean, seriously – and not to be disrespectful - but you sometimes exude this almost-religious-like vibe, which I suspect you don’t mean. Or do you? Is that offensive?

RD: No, no, no. (laughs)

RMS: But, I mean, especially in the shows where you wax philosophical about stuff, which is a lot of them. Or, it’s like you end up devolving into almost sermonizing - like you’ve created this alter-ego that’s a boiled-down version of those passionate aspects of your personality? And it’s almost like some swami, or some New-Age Tony Robbins, Stuart Smalley, type thing. I don’t know. I feel bad – forgive me - I’m not saying it right.

RD: I think I know what you mean, yeah. (laughs) It’s funny, actually, cuz I joke sometimes with my friends about how being a guru would be the perfect career. But I’m actually totally wary of that stuff. The show isn’t religious in any specific sense, obviously. And I don’t mean to sermonize. But I also think you're pointing at something really basic and human - we all have passions and places where we're easily emotionally energized. So, that's just me. I really don't see it as a caricature or a "boiled down version" of me. It is me! (laughs)

RMS: Makes sense.

RD: But it's funny you mention Tony Robbins. I actually have a strange sense of respect for what he's doing - or, what I know of what he's doing, anyway – which isn’t much, so I probably shouldn't mention it...

RMS: And Stuart Smalley too?

RD: Sure. (laughs)

RMS: But seriously – would you really wanna be like Tony Robbins if you could?

RD: Well no, of course not - and I don't mean to actually vouch for him. I take that back. I'm not. I really just know him from the soundbytes. More generally, I'm in awe of the emotional power of anybody who can inspire and help us think about life in new ways – help us reach our potential, dream bigger, etc. Now that I would love to do! So, I guess it just gets back to what you were saying about the religious connection? Maybe in ways I’m trying to do my own introverted version of that? I don’t know. I think an intimate, less-cheesey, version of Tony Robbins would be even more emotional and moving than Tony Robbins. And more real.

RMS: It’s interesting, cuz you say the podcast isn't religious or guru-like, but religion, obviously, is a big undercurrent of the show. You talk about it a lot!

RD: I do, cuz I love religion. I'm fascinated by it. The idealism, the passion, the emotion. It's important to me.

RMS: Totally, yeah. But, it also gets me back to the idea of persona, cuz I wonder if you parse or have to mute your ideas in order to make them fit when it comes to issues like this? You seem to self-consciously take the middle ground a lot, and ask questions rather than state flat-out what you think. Not only with religion, but in a lot of areas. And I know you're not a religious person, or void of opinion in these areas, so how do you deal with that?

RD: This is hard to answer. Actually, I do feel like I'm a religious person. And I talk about it on the podcast openly and honestly. But I also realize that I mean "religious" in a way that's uncommon to lots of people. And my experiences with god and faith and Christianity are hard to explain in simple terms. I know this affects how I explain things. But I'm always attempting to communicate my true heart in the clearest way possible. Imperfectly, I'm sure.

RMS: But when you take the middle ground, is that honest?

RD: Oh, absolutely! That's always a reflection of where I am on any given issue or question. My real opinion is usually divided, which I realize is probably odd to some people. But if I'm asking questions, it's because I honestly see both sides, and I'm curious how other people see it. I'm not consciously trying to take both sides on issues, but I am consciously trying to understand people who disagree with me, and why. And I do often see two sides - usually more than two! (laughs)

RMS: Sure, but even so, you've got judgemental opinions too, right?

RD: Of course. Lots.

RMS: And so, in that sense, you consciously go to the middle ground, rather than talk about your own opinion. Is that fair?

RD: No - I just don't see it that way. Honestly. But I do see how it might seem that way to others.

RMS: How do you see it?

RD: Just as me being honest about the complexity, and asking others to share in figuring it out...

RMS: But do you see how that might be perceived as a "persona" or false by some listeners?

RD: Sure, I guess. But that sort of "persona" exists everywhere, right? And in every relationship. And it's not distinct to podcasting per se. Like I said before, I think whenever people get to know us in a specific context only, they’re responding to, and seeing, a one-dimensional version of who we are. There’s no way for everyone to see us as a whole, complex, person when they only see one aspect. And there's no way we can present all sides at all times. We choose the one we think is most important in any given context. And yeah, it's fair to call that a "persona" I guess - just like there's an inherent "persona" anytime we choose to say anything. Does that make sense?

RMS: Yes, but because of that complexity, do you find that people misunderstand, or assume? Seems like it might feel deeply limiting - or frustrating - if you're not getting your point across.

RD: I don't know. Maybe in some ways, but by and large I find that people get it. Not always, and not in every aspect, but overall.

RMS: You focus on the positive?

RD: I try to. I mean, I don't like being misunderstood any more than anyone else - but I also don't see misunderstanding as someone else's failure. I think people do care. But we're all limited. And when misunderstanding happens, the best we can do is have grace for each other, and try to get better at communicating in ways that others can hear. And just keep listening. That's what I want.

RMS: There's a lot of hope there.

RD: I think so. And all the potential for relationship and learning that's embedded in that! I don't wanna miss it.

RMS: It makes a huge difference when we focus on our side of it.

RD: Right. And I know I'm missing more than I can imagine in my own misunderstanding of others. I wanna keep working forward, and questioning my assumptions. I mean, just think of all the interesting and amazing people we pass by everyday, right? It's amazing!

RMS: I know. You've mentioned that before, yeah.

RD: It's just amazing to me - how we package the world around us and tend to see others as functions - “the Starbucks guy,” or, "the guy who sits next to me on MUNI." And, somewhere in our minds, we also also know that these are real people with heart and soul and talent and families and friends and whole lifetimes of experience and disappointment and dreams for the future. We know that! But, in our limitatation, they're just “the guy who makes lattes," or "the guy who listens to his ipod too loud." It's weird.

RMS: Sad too. Seems like human nature.

RD: Probably. I don't know that we'll ever get beyond it, but I'm challenged by the truth of it. And I think we’re always dealing with those limitations in our relationship with others. The key is to try to realize it and be open and listen and understand that, whenever we see someone else, we’re only seeing from a narrow little crack in the fence. There's a lot more out there than we understand. And it makes a huge difference when we respect that.

RMS: Agreed. And makes sense in relation to forgiveness, and love, and what we expect of others.

RD: Somehow we have to learn to be ok with the fact that we’re only ever partially understood, or understanding, at any given moment, or in any given relationship. It's hard to face.

RMS: Cuz we all ache for more…

RD: We do, yeah. It hurts. But I think that ache is what motivates us to stop and think and delve into these things in the first place.

RMS: Right. So, basically, what you’re saying is that you don’t see yourself as a guru, right? Even if you sound like one! (laughs)

RD: Right. Yeah. Well, I think I'm obviously totally human and broken. I think that comes through. And I haven't heard that guru thing from anybody, so I think I'm safe!

RMS: Hey, I’m somebody! (laughs)

RD: No, yeah, sorry. And thanks for saying so! But really, I'm just talking about where I'm at, trying to feel better and understand stuff. It’s selfish – very un-guru-like.

RMS: Selfish? You think?

RD: Sure, definitely. But it’s the kind of selfishness that comes from a place of sincerity, and wanting to connect. So, sorta good and beautiful too. It's both.

RMS: I like it.

RD: Thanks. I think it’s important. Most of our good stuff and bad stuff are mixed up, don't you think?

RMS: I do. Our biggest strengths and weaknesses are often the same thing.

RD: I know, and kinda funny in a beautiful way too, right?

RMS: How so?

RD: I don't know. Sometimes it just makes me smile when I see myself doing the same stuff, all over again and again and again. Being silly, being selfish. It's almost like I just can't be any other way. But then I catch it. So, I don't know. And I see how these frailties are simultaneously connected to what I think are my best qualities, so. It's just funny.

RMS: I see that in myself too.

RD: Yeah, just weird.

RMS: So – not to change gears – but how’s music going?

RD: Good. I think what you said about the podcast changing things is true. I’m much more into live performance recording these days, and stripping stuff down to the emotional barebones. It feels right.

RMS: Are you working on recordings?

RD: Yeah, but slowly, and not just for the sake of recording. My feeling right now is more like I want to do recordings that mesh with live performance and mesh with the podcast. I want them to work together. So my idea is to record a lot more, and to focus on the emotional stuff rather than the technical stuff.

RMS: Does that mean simpler recordings?

RD: Mostly, yeah. I realized this past year that I’m never gonna be an audio engineer. I just don’t enjoy it enough to learn to do it right. My interest has never been there, anyway. So, I’m trying to focus on what I think my music is about. And I guess it’s not about audio perfection or recording technique. Obviously! (laughs)

RMS: Makes sense. But how would you describe it - what your music's about?

RD: Um, well - same thing we've been talking about - all this - trying to make sense of life and feelings and create a safe place to be honest and real with other people.

RMS: Anything new in the pipeline? Are you working on a cd right now?

RD: Sort of. I just gave away all of the last cd “Slippery Slope,” so it will be available online only now. And I’m working on a new cd to give away at shows. Once that’s gone, I’ll do the same thing over again. That’s what makes sense to me.

RMS: You’re not gonna keep cds in stock?

RD: I don’t plan to. I wanna use them as thank-you gifts for people who come to see my shows. They’re homemade and handmade on purpose, and naturally limited editions.

RMS: Like collector’s items!

RD: Yeah, maybe! (laughs) I don’t know – but that approach just feels right. I want them to be special and personalized.

RMS: Cool. Seems like a nice touch.

RD: I hope so, yeah. That’s what I want. I really want the live shows to be authentic and warmly, deeply, human and real and friendly. And I’m trying to think of ways to communicate how much it means that people share that with me. Cuz it really does mean a lot to me. On a personal level.

RMS: Is that what the “love note” thing is about too?

RD: Yeah totally. I think it’s better to call them “friendship notes,” but yeah, I’m trying to break out of the performance mode, and relate personally. I don’t know if it’s possible, but I hope so.

RMS: And, just for those who don’t know, what are the “friendship notes”?

RD: I’ve been writing notes specific for each show, and handing them out to people who come out. They’re sorta like paper blog entries, specific to the night – trying to break through and let people know that the evening means a lot to me. I get a little scared sometimes, because they’re a little bit emotionally out there sometimes, but mostly, I’m really excited about them.

RMS: What do you get scared about?

RD: Well, like I said, I just realize that it’s maybe not what a lot of people want when they come to hear music. So, I try to find the line between being expressive and emotionally present, and also sensitive and giving space and time and a place for people to respond, or not respond, in whatever way feels best for them. That feels key, and really important, cuz I don’t wanna get into the position of bullying people into wanting what I want, you know? I'm trying to offer my best version of what I have, and then let go and really respect people who don’t want it – or people who maybe just want it in a different way than what I expect or need. It’s a hard balance to find, you know?

RMS: Yeah.

RD: But I wanna respect that.

RMS: In your heart, what’s that like? I mean, from your side, what do you want out of the interaction, or out of a performance?

RD: I want to increase the potential for personal connection – that’s my motivation. And I wanna defuse the commodification of music and heart and business and how all of that has gotten intertwined. I’m not sure why, but the whole commerce thing just makes me feel bad – so, I know a lot of all this is just my response to that. I don’t want music or love or friendship or feeling to be a business.

RMS: Sounds like it’s about a whole life for you?

RD: That’s my goal. I want things to be that way.

RMS: And it seems like you’re succeeding!

RD: Thanks, I hope so – so that means a lot. But sometimes it feels bad too, you know? But I guess that’s just part of it?

RMS: Idealism is like that.

RD: Yeah, I know. It’s good.

RMS: I’m glad you’re doing it.

RD: Thanks. Me too! Even when it’s hard.

RMS: And how about other stuff? Poems, paintings? Any new stuff?

RD: Not much, no. But I want to, and plan to. I will in time. It all goes in cycles.

RMS: So in the near-term future, what’s coming up?

RD: Right now, more podcasting and live shows and cds. I’m hoping to have the next free cd out by Winter 2008. And a few acoustic shows to give them away. And I’m playing drums with Procrastinistas and Slyway, and still doing guitar with Liz Angelucci. So, I’m busy. I'll be around the city for sure.

RMS: I’m excited. Seems like things are good, right?

RD: I think so. I feel really lucky and grateful.

RMS: Me too. Thanks for taking the time to talk.

RD: Of course! It’s an honor. Thanks for being interested and caring. It’s fun.

RMS: Cool. Let’s do this again soon, ok?

RD: Absolutely.

The simplemuzik podcast is available weekly at www.simplemuzik.net.
Russell's music is also available for FREE here (top secret id + password = "muzik").

© 2007 russelldavidholsopple - all rights reserved